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Trivia The Moral Argument

GildartsTale

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The moral argument for the existence of God is the argument that God is necessary for objective moral values or duties to exist. Since objective moral values and duties do exist, God must also exist. The argument is not claiming that people who don’t believe in God cannot do kind things or that atheists are generally morally worse people than religious people are. The argument is claiming that the only reason such kind actions can be thought of as truly being morally good in any real or objective sense is that the atheist is wrong about God. Such actions are objectively good because God actually does exist, even if the atheist doesn’t believe He exists. Just as those who deny germs exist can still get sick because germs really do exist, those who deny God exists can still do good things because God really does exist, and so a real standard of good does exist to make “doing good” possible.

Objective Moral Values and God’s Existence​

The argument is a very simple one, and can be structured something like this:

  1. For an objective moral standard to exist, God must exist
  2. An objective moral standard does exist
  3. Therefore, God exists
Some Christians have found it helpful to structure the argument in the negative form:1:

  1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist
  2. Objective moral values and duties do exist
  3. Therefore God exists
Both of these forms are essentially the same argument. Objective moral values and duties cannot exist without God. To deny God, one must also give up the idea that anything is actually right or wrong in any real sense.

Objections to the Moral Argument​

The primary objection to this argument is to claim that objective moral values don’t actually exist. The atheist can claim that morality is a social construct. It is a useful human tool, a necessary social device that makes society possible, but there is nothing objective or real about morality beyond what we make it. Nothing is actually good or evil. These are merely subjective human judgments. This, however, is a radical claim that no one should take too seriously. In a sense, we cannot prove that objective moral values do exist. But, also we cannot prove that external reality outside our own minds exists. Every sense and experience we have tells us that there is a real, physical world in which we live. If someone were to come up and tell you that this was actually untrue and that the world was all an illusion, perhaps that you were trapped in a dream, how would you prove them wrong? The fact that it all seems very real doesn’t prove anything as a dream or illusion could also seem very real. Even more, if there is no actual “real,” what would be your frame of reference to call something real? Yet it is perfectly rational to conclude that the world really does exist. Even those who would try and deny this must live as if it is true.

In the same way, every sense and experience we have tells us that some things really are good and other things really are bad. We are as certain that there are real virtues, evils, and injustices as we are that there are real rocks, trees, and other human beings. In fact, we are more certain. Imagine for a moment that a man realized that all of life really was just a dream. Now imagine this man’s reaction to this was to rush out into his dream world and begin raping all the women and bashing all the children’s heads against the pavement. Something would be seriously wrong with such a person. We can imagine physical reality being an illusion, but even then it is unimaginable that moral reality is an illusion! When we meet someone who actually lives like there is no morality at all, we call this person a sociopath and recognize this as a serious defect. They are failing to perceive an important element of reality just as the blind or deaf person fails to perceive an important element of physical reality, and we rightly understand sociopathy to be a far greater defect than mere physical blindness or deafness.

Many will point out that different cultures have different moralities and claim that this is evidence that objective morality does not exist and that it is just a cultural construct. Some have very convincingly rebutted that, behind the differing expressions, there is actually a core of universal moral principles that all cultures really do affirm. Even if this is not the case, however, the objection is not logically valid. Many cultures around the world have fundamentally different ideas of why people get sick, but that does not make germ theory invalid nor render the cause of sickness to be a mere social construct. The fact that many cultures today still do not believe in germs, and that most cultures throughout history did not, doesn’t change the fact that germs exist and that they cause sickness. In the same way, just because a bunch of cultures get morality partially or even wholly wrong does not mean that morality does not exist. Morality is very real, and most all of us are actually quite sure of it. This is the rational position.

The other major objection is that morality can exist on its own without God. Things like rape and murder are really wrong whether God exists or not. The problem is that there is no clear reason why this would be so. Biology cannot ground it. If morality is a mere instinct, then it is not objective. Morality is reduced back to mere human perception that can be changed or even done away with entirely. Morality also distinguishes humans from animals in a way mere biology cannot explain. A trout that eats another trout’s young is not evil, but a man who eats his neighbor’s daughter is very evil. Morality is also not a physical law. Morality does not operate on a mere system of actions and reactions. Murder is wrong even if you get the results you want from doing it with no adverse effects, and if there is no divine judgment after this life, then there are people who really do literally get away with murder. Moral actions do not display the measurable system of causes and effects that physical laws do. Even if one puts forward an impersonal, unconscious moral force or principle like the eastern concept of Karma, it falls short of the goal. Buddhists are quite clear that Karma does not actually represent objective morality and must not be thought of that way. It is not about moral right and wrong, but about mere cause and effect and getting the results you want. On Karma, rape and murder are not morally wrong; they are just unhelpful if your goal is enlightenment and escaping the cycle of death and rebirth. There simply is no rational ground that has ever been offered for real, objective morality outside of a personal God.

Strengths and Weaknesses of the Argument​

The moral argument appeals not only to the rational mind but to the moral conviction in the soul of a man. It speaks more to the whole person than many merely intellectual arguments do. It also intimately connects believing in God with moral judgment and God’s justice, which connects more readily to the gospel than most other arguments. The argument is also simple and easy to remember and to explain, making it accessible to most Christians.

On the other hand, because the existence of morality is not strictly provable, the argument can be rejected out-of-hand without being properly considered, regardless of how obvious it is that objective morality exists. It also suffers from the fact that, while no rational ground for objective moral values and duties besides God has ever been thought of, that does not automatically mean that one does not exist that we have not yet discovered. This, too, can be used to reject the argument in blind faith that there is still a different foundation for morality yet to be found.

References
References
1William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith: Third Edition (Crossway Books, 2008) 172
 
I dont agree with this argument particularly on the first premise. It merely asserts that the existence of god is a necessity for objective morality and not providing anything concrete to say that its true.

Though im curious lang whats ur definition of morality TS?
 
I dont agree with this argument particularly on the first premise. It merely asserts that the existence of god is a necessity for objective morality and not providing anything concrete to say that its true.

Though im curious lang whats ur definition of morality TS?
Morality is how we distinguish what is good and bad.
 
Okay. What makes an action bad or good?

And do u agree jan sa moral argument for god?
The question is not what makes an action bad or good. The question is that how do we know that the action is bad or good? What standard are we basing on what action is bad or good?
 
The question is not what makes an action bad or good. The question is that how do we know that the action is bad or good? What standard are we basing on what action is bad or good?
I think its kinda the same question. But to answer that, i based whether something is good or bad on well-being.

So ill again do u agree sa moral argument for god?

And lemme throw back ur question,
“How do we know that the action is bad or good? What standard are we basing on what action is bad or good?”
 
I think its kinda the same question. But to answer that, i based whether something is good or bad on well-being.

So ill again do u agree sa moral argument for god?

And lemme throw back ur question,
“How do we know that the action is bad or good? What standard are we basing on what action is bad or good?”
And lemme throw back again. The question:
“How do we know that the action is bad or good? What standard are we basing on what action is bad or good?”

My answer is already in the OP.
 
And lemme throw back again. The question:
“How do we know that the action is bad or good? What standard are we basing on what action is bad or good?”

My answer is already in the OP.
The OP mainly discussed that morality exists which i agree with completely. Whether its objective or subjective is something i can address later on if u will grant me the answer to what i asked if u agree or not to the argument u presented.

U mentioned that there is a reference point for something to be real. What then is ur reference point in discerning good from evil? Is it god?
 
The OP mainly discussed that morality exists which i agree with completely. Whether its objective or subjective is something i can address later on if u will grant me the answer to what i asked if u agree or not to the argument u presented.

U mentioned that there is a reference point for something to be real. What then is ur reference point in discerning good from evil? Is it god?
The short answer is Yes.

If our view of morality is subjective then how can we really know what is good and evil? if our reference point is subjective by nature?
 
The short answer is Yes.

If our view of morality is subjective then how can we really know what is good and evil? if our reference point is subjective by nature?
I agree that meron dapat reference point or goal… urs is god or at least his will. U, choosing god as ur reference point is subjective…once na establish mo na ung reference point mo then its objective na. The actions you take will be deemed good or evil based on the objective u chose.

And even if u chose god as the reference point then ultimately subjective pa din. God says what is right and wrong. He is choosing wats immoral and moral. And he sometimes changes his mind. He commands that killing is evil and yet orders his people to massacre people from other nations.


Thats why i dont agree with craig’s argument. Like i said the first premise cant be acceptep because its loaded with the assumption that a god exists and that such god is a necessity for the existence of morality. And even if a god is proven to exists, what will happen if its not the same god that u chose as ur reference point?? Are people appealing to a different god immoral?

Many people believe in different gods, some dont even believe in any god at all. And yet most of us can agree on actions that are good and evil. And if god-given morality is objective and absolute then such commonality should not exist, and yet it does.

This have been said many times but its like the game of chess. The reference point or goal is to win. The moves of the players are either good or bad in reference to the goal of winning. If one of players have the goal of winning in mind and his opponent doesnt then the moves of the opposing player will be deemed mostly bad by the player who wants to win. Whereas the player who hAve not set his goal on winning will not recognize his move as either good or bad.

It all boils down to that “reference point” …
 
I agree that meron dapat reference point or goal… urs is god or at least his will. U, choosing god as ur reference point is subjective…once na establish mo na ung reference point mo then its objective na. The actions you take will be deemed good or evil based on the objective u chose.

And even if u chose god as the reference point then ultimately subjective pa din. God says what is right and wrong. He is choosing wats immoral and moral. And he sometimes changes his mind. He commands that killing is evil and yet orders his people to massacre people from other nations.


Thats why i dont agree with craig’s argument. Like i said the first premise cant be acceptep because its loaded with the assumption that a god exists and that such god is a necessity for the existence of morality. And even if a god is proven to exists, what will happen if its not the same god that u chose as ur reference point?? Are people appealing to a different god immoral?

Many people believe in different gods, some dont even believe in any god at all. And yet most of us can agree on actions that are good and evil. And if god-given morality is objective and absolute then such commonality should not exist, and yet it does.

This have been said many times but its like the game of chess. The reference point or goal is to win. The moves of the players are either good or bad in reference to the goal of winning. If one of players have the goal of winning in mind and his opponent doesnt then the moves of the opposing player will be deemed mostly bad by the player who wants to win. Whereas the player who hAve not set his goal on winning will not recognize his move as either good or bad.

It all boils down to that “reference point” …

1. God does not change His mind. If He did then He cease to be God. God is the giver of life. He gives and take away. (There so much to tackle on this issue)

2. God is necessary for the existence of "objective morality". If there is moral standard on which we can mirror what is really good/evil then our morality is subject to our own opinion.
Example on the topic of "abortion". Some people think that killing an unborn child is good and others don't. We live in a post modern society or what we called the "Era of Relativism" where your own opinion is the truth. "You Make You".

3. The Bible is clear that God put His laws upon us. (That's why majority of us knows)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Romans 2:14-15

4. The reference point must be God, since He does not change. If it boils down to us, we fail and our opinion changes and we have biases. And the bigger problem relativism took over mainstream and we are the truth of our own selves. What was once deemed evil now it became good in the eyes of men.
 
1. God does not change His mind. If He did then He cease to be God. God is the giver of life. He gives and take away. (There so much to tackle on this issue)

2. God is necessary for the existence of "objective morality". If there is moral standard on which we can mirror what is really good/evil then our morality is subject to our own opinion.
Example on the topic of "abortion". Some people think that killing an unborn child is good and others don't. We live in a post modern society or what we called the "Era of Relativism" where your own opinion is the truth. "You Make You".

3. The Bible is clear that God put His laws upon us. (That's why majority of us knows)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Romans 2:14-15

4. The reference point must be God, since He does not change. If it boils down to us, we fail and our opinion changes and we have biases. And the bigger problem relativism took over mainstream and we are the truth of our own selves. What was once deemed evil now it became good in the eyes of men.
God as a life giver is irrelevant. and god not changing his mind will only be relevant as well once his existence is proven… its not even a question of whether god changes his mind or not, its that he made up his mind on whats moral or not.. that in itself is also subjective…

There can be a moral standard or standards we can chose from as our reference point…ur just asserting that it should be god. Well-being is a prime example of a good moral standard. Choosing that reference point is ultimately subjective…

And when u said that majority of us was laid down with those laws and it was written in our hearts, wat about the minority that didnt have these laws or have them written in their hearts?? Why wasnt it written on everyones heart and not just on the majority… kasi dun palang may divide na eh… and even for the majority of people na nakasulat sa puso nila ung law ni god if they can still choose to not follow such laws despite them being written na sa hearts nila….

The example on abortion is pretty lame kasi god has no problem killing unborn kids and children din nman… just saying…

I dunno if u missed somethings pero based sa list mo eh mukang u didnt put up ur response completely… points 5-13 is not there ata
 
God as a life giver is irrelevant. and god not changing his mind will only be relevant as well once his existence is proven… its not even a question of whether god changes his mind or not, its that he made up his mind on whats moral or not.. that in itself is also subjective…

There can be a moral standard or standards we can chose from as our reference point…ur just asserting that it should be god. Well-being is a prime example of a good moral standard. Choosing that reference point is ultimately subjective…

And when u said that majority of us was laid down with those laws and it was written in our hearts, wat about the minority that didnt have these laws or have them written in their hearts?? Why wasnt it written on everyones heart and not just on the majority… kasi dun palang may divide na eh… and even for the majority of people na nakasulat sa puso nila ung law ni god if they can still choose to not follow such laws despite them being written na sa hearts nila….

The example on abortion is pretty lame kasi god has no problem killing unborn kids and children din nman… just saying…

I dunno if u missed somethings pero based sa list mo eh mukang u didnt put up ur response completely… points 5-13 is not there ata

Why is it irrelevant? You make your own assumptions of who God is. And I can't present my view of who really God is?
To us, God is the giver of life which means He gave and takes away. Killing is not the right term, He takes away what was He had given to us finite being. If you think that God has no right to take away what He gave then your version of God is not the same as mine.

Your missing the point, God did not made up His mind what is evil and good. He is the ultimate expression of what is good. He is good.

If subjectivity is our reference point of our moral values. Then how can we condemned those who choose to abort their child if it's to them was right/good?

Let me rephrase what I said, God put laws upon the hearts of men (all men). But we have free will. We either choose to follow the moral laws or do evil. And the reality, we often do evil. Kaya nga we have no excuse to our choices.

The abortion is a good example. God does not kill, He takes away. He never commands for the killing of the unborn. We do.
 
Why is it irrelevant? You make your own assumptions of who God is. And I can't present my view of who really God is?
To us, God is the giver of life which means He gave and takes away. Killing is not the right term, He takes away what was He had given to us finite being. If you think that God has no right to take away what He gave then your version of God is not the same as mine.

Your missing the point, God did not made up His mind what is evil and good. He is the ultimate expression of what is good. He is good.

If subjectivity is our reference point of our moral values. Then how can we condemned those who choose to abort their child if it's to them was right/good?

Let me rephrase what I said, God put laws upon the hearts of men (all men). But we have free will. We either choose to follow the moral laws or do evil. And the reality, we often do evil. Kaya nga we have no excuse to our choices.

The abortion is a good example. God does not kill, He takes away. He never commands for the killing of the unborn. We do.
I already mentioned it… prove first na ur god exists then tska sya magiging relevant… If we are gonna continue with the assumption that a god exist then which god would that be?? Is it ur god of the bible or can we fit any god of our choosing in the equation??

You’re missing the point… what im saying is that ur moral argument for god relies on his assumed existence… assumed and not proven existence…hence my objection to the first premise….

Subjectivity is NOT a reference point… the act on deciding which reference point to use is subjective… a god believer can choose god as his reference point just as a person who have not known god can choose a different reference point… the choosing part at its core is subjective…

Im not condemning people who made such choice… and as far as i know the bible does not too…. I can recall a law about accidental miscarriages but nothing specifically on abortion… stories on “taking the life” of babies in the womb were mentioned a lot in the bible though….

The freewill excuse only works if people are aware of the laws written in their hearts and is completely ignoring them… however, as u said majority lang ang meron nean sa puso nila.. and for those who does not have it written sa hearts nila, well, they cant willfully disobey something that they are not aware of, cant they?

Abortion is an example, as well as slavery, incest of the things that ur god does not condemns…
 
I already mentioned it… prove first na ur god exists then tska sya magiging relevant… If we are gonna continue with the assumption that a god exist then which god would that be?? Is it ur god of the bible or can we fit any god of our choosing in the equation??

You’re missing the point… what im saying is that ur moral argument for god relies on his assumed existence… assumed and not proven existence…hence my objection to the first premise….

Subjectivity is NOT a reference point… the act on deciding which reference point to use is subjective… a god believer can choose god as his reference point just as a person who have not known god can choose a different reference point… the choosing part at its core is subjective…

Im not condemning people who made such choice… and as far as i know the bible does not too…. I can recall a law about accidental miscarriages but nothing specifically on abortion… stories on “taking the life” of babies in the womb were mentioned a lot in the bible though….

The freewill excuse only works if people are aware of the laws written in their hearts and is completely ignoring them… however, as u said majority lang ang meron nean sa puso nila.. and for those who does not have it written sa hearts nila, well, they cant willfully disobey something that they are not aware of, cant they?

Abortion is an example, as well as slavery, incest of the things that ur god does not condemns…
Here we go again. You keep spouting your views of who is the God of the Bible. That He condones slavery, incest a of things, and so on? And my view of who God is out of the water already? ehh?? It so so clear the God of the Bible.

What I am saying. In order for objective moral values to exist it needs God. Then our morality its just an illusion that we made up for ourselves.

Your playing with words. You don't get it do you. Let me give a simple illustration. The 10 commandments are objective truths and are from God. While the choosing is subject to us. Do we follow it or not. The point is we have the 10 commandments where we can refer to which we can know what we are doing is evil/good. If there is no absolute reference point i.e. the 10 commandments then how can we judge between good/evil?

See, that's what I am saying all this time. To you killing an unborn child is okay. If it were 3-5 yrs. old would you say that you wont condemned the killer?

Unfortunately the bible teaches to kill a child in the womb. Maybe your reading to much misinformation about the bible. tsk2..

Read again. I did rephrase my words. God put laws upon the hearts of men (all men). But we have free will. We either choose to follow the moral laws or do evil. And the reality, we often do evil. Kaya nga we have no excuse to our choices.

Those accusations of the Bible has been answered by theologian long, long, long ago.

I was once a skeptic of the Bible but when you read in both side of the parties and study actual history. it changes your perspective.

Maybe soon, I'll post an article about scholarly studies, historians in both camp. About he authenticity of the Bible and so on.
 
Here we go again. You keep spouting your views of who is the God of the Bible. That He condones slavery, incest a of things, and so on? And my view of who God is out of the water already? ehh?? It so so clear the God of the Bible.

What I am saying. In order for objective moral values to exist it needs God. Then our morality its just an illusion that we made up for ourselves.

Your playing with words. You don't get it do you. Let me give a simple illustration. The 10 commandments are objective truths and are from God. While the choosing is subject to us. Do we follow it or not. The point is we have the 10 commandments where we can refer to which we can know what we are doing is evil/good. If there is no absolute reference point i.e. the 10 commandments then how can we judge between good/evil?

See, that's what I am saying all this time. To you killing an unborn child is okay. If it were 3-5 yrs. old would you say that you wont condemned the killer?

Unfortunately the bible teaches to kill a child in the womb. Maybe your reading to much misinformation about the bible. tsk2..

Read again. I did rephrase my words. God put laws upon the hearts of men (all men). But we have free will. We either choose to follow the moral laws or do evil. And the reality, we often do evil. Kaya nga we have no excuse to our choices.

Those accusations of the Bible has been answered by theologian long, long, long ago.

I was once a skeptic of the Bible but when you read in both side of the parties and study actual history. it changes your perspective.

Maybe soon, I'll post an article about scholarly studies, historians in both camp. About he authenticity of the Bible and so on.
Those arent just my views.. those things are written in ur bible, is it not??

I get what ur saying, believe me. I just simply dont agree with it. I dont agree with the notion that god is required for the existence of morality when u have not established that god exists in the first place… ur just asserting that he is and that he is a necessity…

I respect people who made the choice of terminating their *******cy… specially the non-viable ones… your god has no problem with that either and regardless of the distinction of viability…

And ur 10 commandments.. like what?? Dont kill or murder?? But when god does it eh its okay cause he is the giver of life?? Special pleading yan eh… i dont agree with that pero fine… ill give u that kasi nga kamo he is god… but what about the times that god commands his people to slaughter other people?? Ordering them to kill evryone including women and children… is that a special case too that does not violate the objective morality that god wrote on those people’s hearts?? Surely u know this bible stories nman….

If ur really honest with urself eh u have to admit na madaming imoral things sa bible and some does not even line up sa 10 commandments na pinapaniwalaan mo na objective reference point… god commands that killing is evil and yet may mga instances that god orders to kill… so how does one resolve that?
 

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